I've talked to many workers and found that while some are excited about the growing # of pay-for-time projects on the system, while others are adamantly against bidding on them. I also noticed that some of the latter don't fully understand how the system works, nor the differences between the two payment models (and what those differences mean to them). So I'm writing this to get all the information out to those people and bridge the communication gap.
First, you have (and always will have) the ability to choose to only bid on whatever type of projects you want. Pay-for-deliverables is not going anywhere; because it is still the safest model of the two for the employer (they get many more guarantees). So if you don't like pay-for-time, you will always have the option of avoiding it.
Having said that, there are some advantages of pay-for-time that you may not be aware of:
****************************
Advantages of pay-for-time
****************************
1) It's cheaper:
The vworker fee on pay-for-deliverables ranges from 7.5%-15% (depending on the services we offer). On pay-for-time, that drops to 6.5%-10%. And if you are working with a repeat employer (which is one of the best uses of pay-for-time), the most you can ever pay is 9%. (Incidentally this is 10% cheaper than the leading competitor also offering pay-for-time). Obviously, the larger the project the more you save.
Click here for more info on the fee.:
2) You don't have to do as much to get paid:
Which of these seems like a better setup to you?
2a) You will not get paid until you:
-Deliver everything in the contract
-Deliver it by the deadline
-Deliver it in the industry expected manner
2b)You will not get paid until you:
-Press a button to tell the employer when you are working on their project, and when you have stopped.
Obviously, 2b is much easier because you don't guarantee to do as much to get paid. Well, 2a is pay-for-deliverables and 2b is pay-for-time. It's pretty easy to see which is more difficult to do.
Now, I know some people have said they don't feel that 2b is easier because the app monitors them. I'll explain why and talk about what this truly means to you, below.
3) No costly estimate mistakes
The #1 reason that workers run into problems that prevent them from being paid on pay-for-deliverables, is that they underestimate (sometimes drastically) how difficult the project is and underbid. If you make this mistake, then you are still contractually committed to deliver the project at the price you bid. So you end up working harder and longer than you first thought, but without getting paid for it. This can't happen on pay-for-time. In pay-for-time you are guaranteed to be paid for every hour you work on the employer's project. So instead, you get paid.
4) Much easier to deal with scope/contract disagreements
The #2 reason that workers run into problems on pay-for-deliverables are scope/contract disagreements. An example: You felt that feature #1 was the equivalent of building the employer a house, but they thought you were going to build them the Taj Mahal and neither one of you realized what the other thought. Now you're at the end, and the employer doesn't want to pay. So you have to choose between doing the work for free, or taking it to arbitration to get more money for it.
Wouldn't it be nice if there were a better way? There is. With pay-for-time, one of two things happens:
4a) If the two of you agree to continue, you will be paid for it (under the normal pay-for-time payment guarantee). There's no possibility of having to do work for free.
4b) If you can't agree to continue, you can stop, knowing you were fully paid for every minute up to that point. Unlike with pay-for-deliverables there is no rating penalty for either of you to withdraw early.
5) Other
5a) Less competition = more chance of winning and more money: This is something that will not last forever, but right now it is something you can take advantage of. The typical pay-for-deliverables project receives 12.5 bids in 24 hours. However, on pay-for-time that number is below 4. So you have 2/3rds less competition. Obviously, less competition means a better chance of winning and more money for you.
5b) Can stop at any time with no ratings penalty: You can stop a pay-for-time project at any time without any penalty or hassle (just click a button). On pay-for-deliverables, this involves an arbitration, and if you do not have a good reason for stopping you may not get paid for the project.
****************************
Disadvantages of pay-for-time
****************************
1) The main complaint from workers that I hear is: "I don't want a camera watching what I do". And it's true the app takes random snapshots of your desktop (several times per hour) to show the employer you are working on their project and not billing them for playing a game, or doing something else. The webcam is no longer required, but optional (see the postscript). However, if the employer requires it, then it is true that it is doing the same thing. And I can understand that some people are shy and others simply feel antsy about being monitored.
If you are in the small minority of workers that overcharges buyers for what you do, or likes to bill buyers for time that you're not working, then this complaint is completely legitimate and I can understand why you don't like pay-for-time. However, if you are like the vast majority of workers who are hard working and do their job properly, a desktop snapshot (or optional webcam shot) is not going to catch you doing anything bad. That's becauase you will be doing exactly what you are always doing...working. And in exchange for that you are getting all the advantages of the above (more money, less commitemnt, more flexibility, etc.)
And unlike the leading competitor you are guaranteed to be paid 100% for mental tasks that don't involve moving around on the desktop. This is an important part of your work, and deserves to be guaranteed just like all the rest. (For more on this, see #3 at this link.)
I hope this information helps explain better what pay-for-time is.
You can also click here for more information on pay-for-time.
Ian Ippolito
CEO vWorker.com
P.S. Here are the latest changes in the pay-for-time application (based on the survey conducted 2 months ago):
1) (Previous release): App installation is no longer required to bid on pay-for-time-projects. This allows you to avoid having to make the time investment to install the program, until you know you actually have paid work coming your way.
2) (Last release): The webcam is optional (only required if the employer requires it). This will allow those without webcams to do pay-for-time projects. The app was changed to no longer require a webcam when you start it up.
3) (Next releases): A cached mode so you can still bill when you have an intermittent connection, or if the site is down for maintenance. Also, Linux and Mac versions will be available as well.
41 comments:
Thank you, vWorker, for making the webcam optional.
I just uninstalled the Timecard application, restarted my PC, downloaded and installed the AccuTimeCard application, but it still requires a camera!
Can we get it straight please... is it, or is it not _currently_ required???
Zorro,
My apologies for the frustration. If there was a mistake we'll fix it. Currently it is after hours here so we can't even look at this, but I've sent a note to the developer to take a look at this first thing. Please send me your email address (or if you don't want to post it publicly, then email it to facilitator at vworker.com) and we'll notify you when it is.
Ian
i have installed accu time card application,, and it doesnt work without camera.. and to work on pay for time.. i am using the webcam..,, its better,, if we can have optional for webcam.. my employer dont need me thru webcam,, but program doesnt allow to run without camera.
hope everything to be solved soon
hari maya max
coder vworker
Zorro, Harish,
This morning we used a computer with a camera and were able to install the app and start it up.
I'm wondering if perhaps both of you are working on an existing project (where the buyer has chosen to require the camera). If so, then, yes the app will enforce that when you start to log time on the project. Ask your buyer to change the setting to optional and then you wont have that issue.
I can really only guess via this forum because I don't know who you are or any of your details, but if you contact our support team they will gather your contact informatio and specific details and we can help you more. You can call in 7 days a week, or you can email at support at vworker.com.
Ian
Zorro, Harish,
Whoops...sorry:
"This morning we used a computer with a camera and were able to install the app and start it up."
Should have said
"This morning we used a computer without a camera and were able to install the app and start it up."
Ian
Thanks Ian... it's nice to get a personal response from the boss himself! :)
My pleasure Zorro.
Ian
I'm a Buyer who has 2 pay-for-time Coders currently working. One coder has a small-enough desktop that I can read his screencaptures, but the other coder has a very big desktop area, (eg. 1200x1920) and his screencaptures become compressed and unreadable. So two suggestions: 1) Make screencapture resolution be required and sized to always capture an image with readable text. 2) Allow Buyer to set Webcam NOT a requirement, unless screencaptures are unreadable, at buyer's discretion.
Steven,
>>I'm a Buyer who has 2 pay-for-time Coders currently working.
I'm glad to hear that you're comfortable to do more than 1 at once. I personally have 3 simulatenously myself (it's a little addictive) and am considering 2-3 more shortly.
>>One coder has a small-enough desktop that I can read his screencaptures, but the other coder has a very big desktop area, (eg. 1200x1920) and his screencaptures become compressed and unreadable. So two suggestions: 1) Make screencapture resolution be required and sized to always capture an image with readable text.
Thanks for letting me know. Without knowing your screen name, I can't look at that timecard yet, so based just on what you wrote, I want to make sure you're already aware that you can click on any screenshot and see a much larger version in a popup? If so, and it's still too small, please let me know (and please contact us at support at vworker.com with your screen name so we can see it ourselves too). Thanks.
>>2) Allow Buyer to set Webcam NOT a requirement, unless screencaptures are unreadable, at buyer's discretion.
As of the last release you now have the discretion to set the webcam to NOT be a requirement. So you can now do that. If I misunderstood and you meant something else (for example: optional screencapture?) please let me know.
Ian
Thanks for the post Ian...
When you posted this article...
Have you thought that these advantages (for WORKERS), are mostly DISADVANTAGES for EMPLOYERS...
Lets see :)
> 1) It's cheaper:
well, this is irrelevant to employer... as employer doesn't pay fees in both cases.
> 2) You don't have to do as much to get paid:
hmm... if I'm an employer I will read it like this:
" I will OVERPAY potential worker... AND the worked does NOT even have to:
> -Deliver everything in the contract
> -Deliver it by the deadline
> -Deliver it in the industry expected manner "
> 3) No costly estimate mistakes
Well, this "shifts" the cost estimation problems to the employer.
I will not be able to know if the worker is going to create the product or not, up front.
I will just have to pay him/her for his/her working hours, hoping that he will finish it soon enough. :)
> 4b) If you can't agree to
> continue, you can stop, knowing
> you were fully paid for every
> minute up to that point.
For employer, this is a disadvantage...
leaving the employer, with an "easy escape" where he/she can get paid to this point, and I ,as employer, have to pay someone else in order to finish it (or even worst to do it from scratch).
Let's face it...
All people on vWorker (RAC), are matured...
They both should discuss the projects specifications IN DETAILS before starting the project.
> Unlike with pay-for-deliverables
> there is no rating penalty for
> either of you to withdraw early
Wouldn't this, encourage SOME dishonest workers to withdraw from the project when they get bored or have more cost-effective projects to do?!
Dishonesty is there (on both sides, workers/employers)...
But we can't just "reward" potentially dishonest workers AND pay them for what they have done so far! :)
Moreover...
When a worker "escapes" the penalty of bad rating for not completing the project...
Aren't you punishing future employers... who will be dealing with workers who have not completed the projects, and just "got paid for the hours he WASTED for the current employers" ?
> 5a) Less competition = more
> chance of winning and more money
Yep! less competition, means that employers are going to overpay the worker (because there are not too many of them who are doing this).
> 5b) Can stop at any time
> with no ratings penalty:
no thank! :)
why ON EARTH... would an EMPLOYER engage into a project where the worker can "stop at any time
without penalty" ??
I mean... if someone wasted my time, and not finished the project, why wouldn't i AT LEAST tell the community that this guy did this to me!
If i'm the only case... then this might be because of special circumstances... but how would workers know this, if we don't see "penalization" for workers who "stop the project at any time"
Anyway... I know this looked like a big fat rant... but it isn't...
I really see no point from the EMPLOYERS prospective) in allowing this pay-for-time thing.
But after all Ian... you're one of the most successfully marketers I ever know.
SO you might be seeing things that I'm not seeing.
Anyway... good luck with your vWorker site.
Best wishes,
Tamer
Tamer,
>>Have you thought that these advantages (for WORKERS), are mostly DISADVANTAGES for EMPLOYERS...
No, I disagree strongly.
First, I specifically addressed this article to workers only, because they seem to be having the most issues fully understanding with pay-for-time. Most employers seem to have already understood the advantages (as evidenced by its huge growth) and didn't need an article written to them.
Second, there are safeguards in pay-for-time that prevent an unethical worker from taking unfair advantage of an employer. As I already discussed in the article...pay-for-time does *not* work well for the unethical worker looking to get out of doing work and still get paid. They get caught right away and have the timecard terminated (and lose out on all the money in the rest of that timecard as well as all future timecards. And unlike pay-for-deliverables, recurring work on pay-for-time is substantial, since most projects span many time cards).
I'll add that I don't know who you truly are, but most of what you've written below makes some very negative assumptions about workers on the site (assuming that every worker is lazy and will attempt to take advantage of employers whenever they can). This is not an accurate picture of the workers on vWorker and as a worker yourself, I'm not really sure why you would say these sorts of things on a public blog. Regardless of your ultimate motives: in actuality only a small # of workers are unethical. And there are safeguards in pay-for-time to protect employers from these types of workers.
Back to employers: 90% of the workers I personally hire on the site go through pay-for-time rather than pay-for-deliverables, because of its advantages for employers. The main one is that pay-for-time's flexibility enables employers to do recurring work (week after week) with workers, that they simply can't do efficiently, economically or practically with pay-for-deliverables due to the overhead. (Incidently this is also an advantage for workers: pay-for-time makes higher paying, longer term jobs possible, and removes having to bid week after week for them, which also saves time and money).
Pay-for-deliverables is great for working with a worker that is new to me and that I don't fully trust yet (because it's so safe). But once I find they are a good worker, the safety mechanisms become too cumbersome. As an example, if I were to switch all my pay-for-time workers to pay-for-deliverables I could not hire them! I'd have to write out each week what each pay-for-time worker was doing for me (to protect myself in arbitration), have them bid, and then only then have them start work. We'd have lost 2 out of 5 business days in the week, and sometimes we couldn't even define it at all, because we don't know at the beginnniner of the week what they will be doing. It's just not practical for long term/recurring work. Without pay-for-time I couldn't get my work done and those workers would lose out on a long-term stream of income.
Instead I have them on my virtual pay roll on pay-for-time and empower them to make their own choices with generic instructions. They figure out what to do and do it, which just isn't possible with pay-for-deliveables, so it works very well for me as an employer. The workers don't take advantage of me because they want to do a good job and continue to get paid. But if for some reason they might be tempted to do something unethical, they know that I am monitoring closely. If they do something like this, I "pull the plug" and they instantly lose the rest of the money they would have made on that timecard, and all the future timecards as well (like my projects, most pay-for-time employers do recurring work). So, it just doesn't make financial sense for the smart/industrious worker to "cheat" and end up losing out on all that money.
(continued on next post)
(continued from previous post):
>>Lets see :)
> 1) It's cheaper:
well, this is irrelevant to employer... as employer doesn't pay fees in both cases.
No it's not irrelevant because: in actuality employers pay the fee as much as workers do. To illustrate this: if we charged a 75% fee (and assuming people still wanted to use the site), do you think workers would charge the same amount they do today, or would raise their prices and thus charge employers more? Our common sense tells us the same thing that economics tells us: The answer is, of course, "yes". Workers pass on the costs to the ultimate payer...who is the employer. Just as when the price of gas goes up, we pay more at the pump from the mom and pop gas station, if we raise or lower fees it gets passed on to the end customer (the employer) because that's what suppliers (workers) do. This is why employers who use us as well as competing sites (such as Elance) that charge monthly subscription fees, tell us that the workers bid higher. Ultimately, workers are not stupid. They are smart, and like all smart business people, if they are able to, they pass on the fees to the ultimate customer.
> 2) You don't have to do as much to get paid:
hmm... if I'm an employer I will read it like this:
" I will OVERPAY potential worker... AND the worked does NOT even have to:
> -Deliver everything in the contract
> -Deliver it by the deadline
> -Deliver it in the industry expected manner "
No, this is not correct.
When the employer posts their project, they are told that if they want the increased flexibility and decreased pricing of pay-for-time, the trade-off is that they will have to monitor the worker's work more closely. At any second, if the worker is lazy and takes unfair advantage, they can terminate the contract right then, and not pay a penny more. A worker tempted to cheat will lose out on the rest of the timecard (and all future time-cards), which is a huge money losing proposition compared with simply doing the ethical thing and doing their best work instead.
> 3) No costly estimate mistakes
Well, this "shifts" the cost estimation problems to the employer.
This would only be true, if the employer still had to pay the worker for the entire project (i.e. if it was the true opposite of pay-for-deliverables). But that is not the case. In actuality, the employer has the right to terminate a pay-for-time project at any point and not pay another cent (just like the worker). So it is not in a worker's best interest to estimate poorly on purpose, because they run the risk of the employer terminating the contract and not getting paid the rest of it. If they had instead estimated properly, they would have gotten paid much more.
>>I will not be able to know if the worker is going to create the product or not, up front.
I will just have to pay him/her for his/her working hours, hoping that he will finish it soon enough. :)
Again this is not correct. As mentioned before, we tell employers to monitor their workers output more closely than pay-for-deliverables so this doesn't happen. And again, a worker can get fired/terminated at any time if they deliberately don't do a good job. It's in their interest to do a good job so they can get paid the most that they can.
(continued on next post)
(#3: continued from previous posting)
> 4b) If you can't agree to
> continue, you can stop, knowing
> you were fully paid for every
> minute up to that point.
For employer, this is a disadvantage...
leaving the employer, with an "easy escape" where he/she can get paid to this point, and I ,as employer, have to pay someone else in order to finish it (or even worst to do it from scratch).
This is not correct and also misrepresents the reasons employers sometimes prefer pay-for-time, as already mentioned eaarlier.
>>Let's face it...All people on vWorker (RAC), are matured...They both should discuss the projects specifications IN DETAILS before starting the project.
No, this can't always happen, as mentioned earlier above.
> Unlike with pay-for-deliverables
> there is no rating penalty for
> either of you to withdraw early
Wouldn't this, encourage SOME dishonest workers to withdraw from the project when they get bored or have more cost-effective projects to do?!
No, for the reasons mentioned earlier.
>>Dishonesty is there (on both sides, workers/employers)... But we can't just "reward" potentially dishonest workers AND pay them for what they have done so far! :)
No, dishonest workers end up getting flushed out very quickly and easily with pay-for-time becuase they don't perform.
>>Moreover... When a worker "escapes" the penalty of bad rating for not completing the project... Aren't you punishing future employers... who will be dealing with workers who have not completed the projects, and just "got paid for the hours he WASTED for the current employers" ?
No. The premise of this argument is fraud, hence the conclusion here is also flawed.
> 5a) Less competition = more
> chance of winning and more money
Yep! less competition, means that employers are going to overpay the worker (because there are not too many of them who are doing this).
No, this misunderstand the basics of an efficient marketaplce. Whatever the efficient market determines is the fair price, is the fair price. If there aren't many people wanting to do a job, it IS for a reason...whatever it is. And that means the job is worth more and is NOT overpaying...it is simply what it is worth.
Also, this was clearly presented as a temporary situation that workers can take advantage of, but is not something that is permeanent.
> 5b) Can stop at any time > with no ratings penalty: no thank! :) why ON EARTH... would an EMPLOYER engage into a project where the worker can "stop at any time
without penalty" ??
I mean... if someone wasted my time, and not finished the project, why wouldn't i AT LEAST tell the community that this guy did this to me!
You are not really understanding pay-for-time from the employers side nor understanding the protections for employers against unethical workers. This was already detailed above so I wno't repeat it again.
>>Anyway... I know this looked like a big fat rant...
Yes, it did look like that. :)
What I'd suggest is this. If you are an employer, let me know your account information (send it to facilitator at vworker.com) and we can send you specific suggestions on how pay-for-time can benefit you.
If you are worker, then I'd suggest that rather than complaining about it, that you try it out and see if it might work for you or not.
Ian
Pay-for-deliverable bidders only seem to look for small easy projects, and whenever possible, I try to do my projects in small easy pieces. But when you have a project needing months of full-time effort from a highly experienced coder, including their help with technology decisions, pay-for-time is the only way you'll get someone.
Tamer's point about not being able to give a Rating to someone who abandons you, is an issue. For instance, I posted one of my pay-for-time projects estimating 4 to 8 months of work, and the coder agreed to be available. If that coder were to say "something came up, I have to quit", I *would* want to be able to put a comment about it onto that workers record.
Steven,
>>Pay-for-deliverable bidders only seem to look for small easy projects, and whenever possible, I try to do my projects in small easy pieces. But when you have a project needing months of full-time effort from a highly experienced coder, including their help with technology decisions, pay-for-time is the only way you'll get someone.
Yes I agree with you that pay-for-deliverables works best for small projects and getting to know a new worker. However, as an employer when I'm doing long term work, pay-for-time is the way to go. And for workers, long term work with an employer is more efficient: they'd much rather be earning more money by working on new timecards, rather than investing the time and effort in bidding for a new project after every pay-for-deliverables effort.
>>Tamer's point about not being able to give a Rating to someone who abandons you, is an issue. For instance, I posted one of my pay-for-time projects estimating 4 to 8 months of work, and the coder agreed to be available. If that coder were to say "something came up, I have to quit", I *would* want to be able to put a comment about it onto that workers record.
The good news is that pay-for-time doesn't actually work the way Tamer was describing. Here's how it does work:
Both parties can rate each other on every pay-for-time project, so both parties have to treat the other with respect and professionalism, to avoid being rated poorly by the other. In the situation you described above, you absolutely can give the worker a bad rating for not doing what they represented.
What *won't* happen (unlike pay-for-deliverables) is that we won't open up an arbitration and probe both parties (perhaps even looking into the deliveries and contract) and determine the ultimate fault for the pull-out and apply our own rating on that party. People sometimes complain that this process is overkill for certain situations, and for those that feel this way, they don't have to go through it by doing pay-for-time instead of pay-for-deliverables.
Ian
Dear Ian...
Thanks, for your clarifications...
I admit that some of my understanding of the pay-for-time projects were incorrect...
So I'm grateful that you've corrected these concepts for me.
> I specifically addressed this article to workers only
Good... but being in a fair marketplace, I personally
would be interested in the whole process (i.e. if I'm an employer
then I need to see how workers will be reacting to any change in the marketplace.. and vice verse of course).
> I'll add that I don't know who you truly are, but most of what
> you've written below makes some very negative assumptions about workers
> on the site (assuming that every worker is lazy and will attempt to
> take advantage of employers whenever they can).
OUCH! Ian... That hearts more than it sounds (your keyboard strokes) :D
I have no affiliation what so ever, with ANY of your
competitors or similar marketplaces online!
I'm not working for any other website that might benefit from my post (if any!)
I'm not contracted (part or full time) by any of them.
and I'm not even a friend of any worker who works for any similar marketplace online!
The point is... I have ZERO benefits from posting my comment... it was SIMPLY a comment.
> I'm not really sure why you would say these sorts of things on a public blog.
Because you allowed me to.
I mean, you can turn comments on & off,
you can bane me from commenting at your blog (this was the first time i comment)
you also can edit/delete my comment (both of which is perfectly acceptable by my, since
you've already clarified many things to me).
> Regardless of your ultimate motives
again this hurts :)
I have no "motives" other than explaining my thoughts regarding your post.
and if that offended you in any way and/or if you feel that 100% of my concerns
were false... then feel free to delete my comment. I really mean it.
By the way i can say the same about your reply...
But i feel that you was so objective in clarifying things to me...
and I really was trying to be objective in explaining my thoughts as well.
(apparently, I didn't do a good job at this?) :)
> in actuality only a small # of workers are unethical.
I totally agree...
While I mentioned unethical workers... i NEVER meant to imply
that the majority of workers at vworker.com are unethical.
The opposite is true... the vast majority of the Vworkers at your website
are 100% ethical, and want to provide the highest quality for
the money (paid for deliverable or time).
>>> 1) It's cheaper:
>> well, this is irrelevant to employer... as employer doesn't pay fees in both cases.
> No it's not irrelevant because: in actuality employers pay the fee as much as workers do.
Yes, I agree with this point... thanks for clarification.
[[ to be continued in next post ]]
[[ continued from last post ]]
> Most employers seem to have already understood the advantages (as evidenced by
> its huge growth) and didn't need an article written to them.
Now, "growth" is a very elastic word :)
I would be interested to know the % of pay-for-time projects compared
to total number of projects done during a specific period.
While "growth" IS relevant... the % of these types of projects compared
to the total is more compelling.
Of course if you don't want to share the official statistics of this...
that would be totally understandable.
Now... you said that most employers "didn't need an article written to them"
hmm... may be that's true... i don't know!
I REALLY needed your clarifications... who is fault is that?
(I hear you saying: YOURS!) LOL
But I honestly think that the pay-for-time projects were not explained well for employers (in spite the "growth")
and if you want it even to grow more... then ask your team, to explain its benefits to employers
(in a newsletter, webinar, videos...etc..)
I have a "little" clue that employers were not given enough chance to understand
the pay-for-time advantages...
Noticed the post from "Steve" above?
He too, thought that we can't rate workers for good/bad experience in a pay-for-time projects?
well... we are 2 now :-)
I know that this is immaterial compared to thousands of employers at vworker.com
I guess, the best thing to do is to conduct a survey/poll for employers only...
to measure their understanding of advantages/disadvantages/limitations of the pay-for-time projects...
Wither you'll share the results publicly or not, you will be able to identify
the weak points in this system (if any) and tweak it to become much better.
Well, I hope i was objective... I assure you that I have no hidden agenda, or "motives"
other than explaining my thoughts (publicly, since your article is publicly available as well).
With that in mind... please feel free to edit this comment and/or previous comment...
or even delete them both all together.
I promise you I won't rant about it on Youtube :) lol
OK Ian... thanks again for your clarifications...
and I wish you all the success,
Regards,
Tamer
Sorry for the multiple posts.
Hey, I too have no webcam and cannot install the new timecard. Same as when the beta came out.
Error "Cannot find Main Class"
Also the site search box is on the fritz lately and no one is responding to tech support requests. Sure vmware is working out? Bit to reminiscent of the asp issues a while back.
Cheers.
Ty A.
DemosSoft Web Hosting.
http://tyademosu.duoservers.com
Ty,
>>Hey, I too have no webcam and cannot install the new timecard. Same as when the beta came out.
Error "Cannot find Main Class".
My apologies for the inconvenience. This issue sounds familiar: are you by chance running 64 bit Windows? If so, Java acts strangely on the majority of 64 bit machines and loses its class path. There is a simple fix we've discovered for this issue, but we need your details to help. I am looking in support (at) vworker.com and not seeing your support email. Please email that address so we can have your account information and environment information and we can help.
>>Also the site search box is on the fritz lately and no one is responding to tech support requests.
It's difficult to figure out your issue over this forum without knowing more details (and I just looked in support (at) vworker.com and don't see anything pending from you). Please see the above to contact support. If you have problems emailing, then call into the office...it's open 7 days a week for exactly this sort of thing.
>>Sure vmware is working out? Bit to reminiscent of the asp issues a while back.
The vmware conversion had to be delayed due to issues/bugs with the vmware conversion software (only a small percentage of servers were able to be converted by the vm software). Until vwware resolves the open tickets the majority of servers are not yet converted.
Ian
Tamer,
>>Dear Ian...
Thanks, for your clarifications...
I admit that some of my understanding of the pay-for-time projects were incorrect...
So I'm grateful that you've corrected these concepts for me.
You're welcome and I'm glad I could be of help.
>>Good... but being in a fair marketplace, I personally
would be interested in the whole process (i.e. if I'm an employer
then I need to see how workers will be reacting to any change in the marketplace.. and vice verse of course).
I understand. Employers get educated very early on the differnces between pay-for-time versus pay-for-deliverables because they have to choose between the two when posting a project. If you are interested in seeing what information is given to them you can see it at:
https://www.vworker.com/RentACoder/DotNet/docs/ProjectPaymentTypes_ForBuyers.aspx
>OUCH! Ian... That hearts more than it sounds (your keyboard strokes) :D I have no affiliation what so ever, with ANY of your
competitors or similar marketplaces online! I'm not working for any other website that might benefit from my post (if any!) I'm not contracted (part or full time) by any of them. and I'm not even a friend of any worker who works for any similar marketplace online! The point is... I have ZERO benefits from posting my comment... it was SIMPLY a comment.
I'm glad to hear that and appreciate that we can have an honest discussion. I do get a little protective of the workers on the site when I perceive someone as attacking their ethics. I apologize for misunderstanding.
>>Because you allowed me to. I mean, you can turn comments on & off, you can bane me from commenting at your blog (this was the first time i comment)
you also can edit/delete my comment (both of which is perfectly acceptable by my, since you've already clarified many things to me).
No, we don't want to turn your commenting off and we're not going to hide what you wrote, because perhaps others may learn from it too. I'm glad we could come to an understanding.
>>> Regardless of your ultimate motives
>>again this hurts :) I have no "motives" other than explaining my thoughts regarding your post. and if that offended you in any way and/or if you feel that 100% of my concerns were false... then feel free to delete my comment. I really mean it. By the way i can say the same about your reply... But i feel that you was so objective in clarifying things to me... and I really was trying to be objective in explaining my thoughts as well. (apparently, I didn't do a good job at this?) :)
I'm just glad to hear that we were able to come to a mutual understanding, and no I will not delete your comment.
>>I totally agree...
While I mentioned unethical workers... i NEVER meant to imply
that the majority of workers at vworker.com are unethical. The opposite is true... the vast majority of the Vworkers at your website
are 100% ethical, and want to provide the highest quality for the money (paid for deliverable or time).
Yes, I agree.
(continued below)
Tamer,
(continued:#2)
>>> No it's not irrelevant because: in actuality employers pay the fee as much as workers do.
>>Yes, I agree with this point... thanks for clarification.
You're welcome Tamer.
>>>> Most employers seem to have already understood the advantages (as evidenced by its huge growth) and didn't need an article written to them.
Now, "growth" is a very elastic word :)
I would be interested to know the % of pay-for-time projects compared
to total number of projects done during a specific period. While "growth" IS relevant... the % of these types of projects compared
to the total is more compelling. Of course if you don't want to share the official statistics of this...
that would be totally understandable.
You can see the growth rate publicly on the Pulse of vWorker.com page (you can also compare this to the total number of projects). The growth rate is ridiculously high right now (11,232%/month and 134,784%/year) simply because it's so new and it's starting from nothing. Over time that will subside to a lower, more reasonable/expected level of growth. This info is at: http://www.vworker.com/RentACoder/DotNet/misc/Reports/PulseOfVworker_Graphs.aspx#ProjectsPerMonth
(warning this page is very slow to load if you are the first person viewing it since the server has auto-restarted, so please give it up to a minute to display if its slow).
>>Now... you said that most employers "didn't need an article written to them" hmm... may be that's true... i don't know! I REALLY needed your clarifications... who is fault is that? (I hear you saying: YOURS!) LOL But I honestly think that the pay-for-time projects were not explained well for employers (in spite the "growth") and if you want it even to grow more... then ask your team, to explain its benefits to employers
(in a newsletter, webinar, videos...etc..)
I can understand you thinking that, because as a worker you've never posted a project and never seen what we tell employers. (see the link I gave earlier for this info) They have to be educated very early in the process so they can make an educated decision. At the same time, you are right that it never hurts to explain things more. We are working on videos (for both employers and workers) for example.
>>I have a "little" clue that employers were not given enough chance to understand
the pay-for-time advantages... Noticed the post from "Steve" above? He too, thought that we can't rate workers for good/bad experience in a pay-for-time projects? well... we are 2 now :-)
Well, actually he only thought that because he read what you posted and thought it was true. We don't say anywhere that you can't rate workers when this happens.
>>I know that this is immaterial compared to thousands of employers at vworker.com I guess, the best thing to do is to conduct a survey/poll for employers only...to measure their understanding of advantages/disadvantages/limitations of the pay-for-time projects...
We actually did this poll a month or two ago and intereviewed both employers and workers. That's where we learned that many workers are not understanding the advantage of pay-for-time. Employers did not have the same problem (at least in that poll).
>>Well, I hope i was objective... I assure you that I have no hidden agenda, or "motives" other than explaining my thoughts (publicly, since your article is publicly available as well).
I appreciate that greatly Tamer.
Ian
>>Hey, I too have no webcam and cannot install the new timecard. Same as when the beta came out.
JVM Error "Cannot find Main Class".
Ian, I must again mention that support is not being helpful lately but I'm not sure if my win xp is 64 bit. It did stop updating a few weeks back and both the pc and xp may be a bit old.
Ty A.
http://www.demossoft.com
Ty,
>>Ian, I must again mention that support is not being helpful lately but I'm not sure if my win xp is 64 bit. It did stop updating a few weeks back and both the pc and xp may be a bit old.
I apologize. However I looked for your email in support (at) vworker.com but didn't see it. Did you send it somewhere else by accident?
When you say "stop updating" I wonder if you're saying "windows update" no longer works? If so, that is a sign of something deeper wrong with your computer. If you contact support they can give you much more help than I can without knowing your specifics.
Ian
Ian,
I installed the accutime card application and it shows the icon on the desktop however, the problem is that it asks me to log in with my email address.
The question is which email address?
I have uninstalled and reinstalled the application 3 times and i still cant log in becuase of that email address requirement.
is there any other website from where i can download this application?
Reeda
Reeda,
>>I installed the accutime card application and it shows the icon on the desktop
Great
>> however, the problem is that it asks me to log in with my email address. The question is which email address?
It's the same email address that you registered on the site and use to login to the site with.
>>I have uninstalled and reinstalled the application 3 times and i still cant log in becuase of that email address requirement. is there any other website from where i can download this application?
It will always ask you that because it needs to know who you are so it can show you which projects you've won.
If you can't remember your email address, you can use the "forgot password" to have the password emailed to you at the address(es) you think it might be. Or you can send us an email (while logged in) via the feedback page to support and we can tell you what your email address is.
Ian
Reeda
Am excited, my first post here, anyways.
RaC has been always working to increase the buyers trust on crowd sourcing & making it easy to work for workers, this is another step where workers are comfortable to prove that they are justifying their work.
Just a question for Ian:
Can you make it easy & lower down the cost of bringing our money back home (Pakistan)? what about money bookers? Western Union is still too costly even after the reduction in rates by RaC (i really appriciate your effort Ian).
Kindly update us on it as we are anxiously waiting for a low cost return of payments.
Accutimecard is not working at all.
Tried to install it 5times but no luck only errors.
Btw, it one joins Vworker and finish $10 work here then he gets 25000 rank of out 300000 coders!! strange!
i wonder if Vworker is showing fake total number of coders.
Ranked #27,476 out of 296,027 (higher than 90.72% of their peers)
This profile is example of it.
So next time if you see that you are 90% ahead then please dont be happy abt it.
its all game.
Grace Group,
>>Am excited, my first post here, anyways.
I'm glad to hear it and it's nice to talk with you.
>>RaC has been always working to increase the buyers trust on crowd sourcing & making it easy to work for workers, this is another step where workers are comfortable to prove that they are justifying their work.
Thanks for the compliment and I'm also excited to see workers being able to earn more and more easily than in the past.
>>Just a question for Ian:
Can you make it easy & lower down the cost of bringing our money back home (Pakistan)? what about money bookers? Western Union is still too costly even after the reduction in rates by RaC (i really appriciate your effort Ian).
Kindly update us on it as we are anxiously waiting for a low cost return of payments.
Actually, moneybookers does not allow payments from the U.S. to Pakistan. A whole other blog post was already written on this topic (payments to places like Pakistan), and you can check that for additional information.
Ian
Samir,
>>Accutimecard is not working at all. Tried to install it 5times but no luck only errors.
My apologies. Have you contacted support about this? I don't see your email there. There is a known issue with 64 bit windows which may be your issue (and an easy workround). But I can only guess...please write to support and they can get more information from you.
>Btw, it one joins Vworker and finish $10 work here then he gets 25000 rank of out 300000 coders!! strange! i wonder if Vworker is showing fake total number of coders. Ranked #27,476 out of 296,027 (higher than 90.72% of their peers) This profile is example of it. So next time if you see that you are 90% ahead then please dont be happy abt it. its all game.
The ranking is done completely openly and transparently so there is no ability for us (or reason either) to cheat or fake it:
https://www.vworker.com/RentACoder/misc/AllCoderCompleteList.asp
Logic tells you that if you complete a $10 job with a good rating, that will put you ahead of:
1) the vast majority of people who signup but never bother to even place a bid
2) The peole who bid but never win
3) The people who dbid and won, but did poorly and received a poor rating.
However, you can see yourself by simply going through the list, and don't need me to tell you this.
Ian
Hi there,
I just have a question... I want to go for pay-for-time module. I am serious with work and there will be no bluffing around but, will the screen shot application work on linux? I have a web cam as well! I use linux as my operating system!
Also, how can I get into this Pay-for-time stuff?
HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLPPPPPPPPPPP!
Sankalan
>>Hi there,
Hello.
>>I just have a question... I want to go for pay-for-time module. I am serious with work and there will be no bluffing around
Okay.
>>but, will the screen shot application work on linux? I have a web cam as well! I use linux as my operating system!
Unfortunately this release only works with Windows. The next release (which has been delayed but is expected at the end of next month) will support Linux.
>>Also, how can I get into this Pay-for-time stuff?HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLPPPPPPPPPPP!
If you have access to Windows you can start right away. Just go to: https://www.vworker.com/RentACoder/DotNet/misc/TimeCard/DesktopApp/Overview.aspx for full information.
Ian
Sankalan,
One more thing: if you can only use linux, then send us an email at suppport at vworker.com and we'll send you an update once the Linux version is out.
Ian
I've finally installed the timecard, had been unable to since the 1st beta came out (last year ?).
Anyway I'd say the problem is the *installer.
1) It suggests for users to install the timecard files straight in the start menu by default which of course didn't work. I think you need to change the default folder to Program files for less attentive folk.
2) The JRE shouldn't really be a problem since the installer prompts you to install or skip JRE install right ? Anyway I thought I already had the JRE but wasn't sure about it or version etc. With the bad installation path it simply skips jre install but I think with a good install folder like program files it starts jre download (?) 10MB. Any, it was staying idle so since I thought I had JRE I stopped the installer and tried it from the program files and it worked. Start menu and desktop icon didn't.
BTW, thought Java worked on all operating systems ??
Ty A.
Demossoft Hosting
http://www.demossoft.com
Good morning
I am based in England, Europe and over here the definition of Self Employed or Employed is “The Reality Of The Relationship” rather than nomination by both parties. By this I mean that the buyer and the worker can’t say this is a “self employed relationship” if it is not.
Pay For Time will almost certainly make the relationship one of employer and employee, the fact that you are paid for the work rather than the outcome is nearly always regarded as one of the main signs of employment.
The concept of risk is an important one in determining employment and self employment and you have emphasised the reduction in this risk.
What is very important about this is that the buyer is unlikely to know that I have just become his employee and he how has a load of obligations that he doesn’t know about.
There are certain industries such were hourly payment is historically the norm and this is allowed but software development is not one of them.
What's your view on this issue?
Bye
Ian Smith
Ian
>>Good morning
Good afternoon.
>>I am based in England, Europe and over here the definition of Self Employed or Employed is “The Reality Of The Relationship” rather than nomination by both parties. By this I mean that the buyer and the worker can’t say this is a “self employed relationship” if it is not.
Yes, it is the same way here in the United States. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) has rules that determine whether the relationship is an employee or a contractor (the equivalent of your self-employed, I believe) relationship...no matter what the two parties may label it or call it.
>>Pay For Time will almost certainly make the relationship one of employer and employee, the fact that you are paid for the work rather than the outcome is nearly always regarded as one of the main signs of employment. The concept of risk is an important one in determining employment and self employment and you have emphasised the reduction in this risk.
In the U.S. an important part of this is that the work must recur regulary and predictably every single week, and also there are several other criteria which place pay-for-time firmly in the contractor camp (versus employee).
Do you have a 3rd party resource you can point me to that explains the law in the the UK?
>>What is very important about this is that the buyer is unlikely to know that I have just become his employee and he how has a load of obligations that he doesn’t know about.
Most of our buyers are located in the U.S.. As such, UK laws wouldn't apply to them. However if a buyer were in the UK and if your interpretation of it is 100% then this could be a factor to them. But we'll look into this possibility closer when you provide a good 3rd party reference.
>>There are certain industries such were hourly payment is historically the norm and this is allowed but software development is not one of them.
Thanks for the information.
Ian
Ty,
>>I've finally installed the timecard, had been unable to since the 1st beta came out (last year ?).
I'm glad to hear that.
>>Anyway I'd say the problem is the *installer.
1) It suggests for users to install the timecard files straight in the start menu by default which of course didn't work. I think you need to change the default folder to Program files for less attentive folk.
I don't quite understand you why "of course" that wouldn't work? I just ran the installer on my machine and it installed properly in that directory. Can you clarify (but please send to support at vworker.com rather than this blog, as this isn't a suitable forum for doing support).
>>2) The JRE shouldn't really be a problem since the installer prompts you to install or skip JRE install right ?
I'm not understanding what problem you are asking me about when referring to with the JRE, but the install does indeed let you choose between both.
>>Anyway I thought I already had the JRE but wasn't sure about it or version etc. With the bad installation path it simply skips jre install but I think with a good install folder like program files it starts jre download (?) 10MB. Any, it was staying idle so since I thought I had JRE I stopped the installer and tried it from the program files and it worked. Start menu and desktop icon didn't.
Are you perhaps running 64 bit Windows?
>>BTW, thought Java worked on all operating systems ??
Again, I'm not sure what preceding question this refers to. But Java does run on all OS's. However there is a bug in the JRE with the path in 64 bit systems. A future version of the app will fix systems with this issue.
Anyway, please write directly to support (at) vworker.com so we can understand what you're referring to with the above. Thanks.
Ian
Hi i try to install the software to my PC with windows XP but fail when run the app, i try to install on my other PC and it's also fail to run.
Have you try to run with XP
i have pay for time project this week and need this software work well
Hello admin,
My apologies for the inconvenience. Yes it has been tested on XP, so there is something related to the configuration of the hardware or software that is causing your issue. It's very difficult to diagnose hardware or software issues in this forum. However if you contact support (at) vworker.com or call into the support phone #, we can gather more information from you and figure out the cause. Thanks.
Ian
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